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GRROWL	I finally got around to using the Mity-Vac fluid extractor and found the results interesting. I used it on 3 cars: PT Cruiser (4 years, 38,000 miles - brakes, trans, PS) GRROWL (4 years, 45,000 miles - brakes, trans, PS) Ford Windstar (8 years, 68,000 miles - brakes, PS) brake fluid: PT - light tan (half-quart) GRROWL - dark tan (half-quart) Windstar - dark gray (actually, clear with black particles, full quart) trans fluid: PT - bright red, looked like new (3-1/2 quarts ATF+4) GRROWL - dark red, plenty of life left (4 quarts ATF+4) PS fluid: PT - light gray GRROWL - medium gray Windstar - dark red (Type "F" trans fluid) Some commented that the 10 quart fluid extractor seemed like overkill, but I consider it to be one of my better tool purchases: $56.05 for 10 quart Mity Vac: http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/MIT-7201.html $18.03 for the Brake Bleeding Accessory Package: http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/MIT-7205.html Conclusions: 1. I didn't experience the black brake fluid that others have reported, but I will change GRROWL's brake fluid again in a year because it was darker than the PT's. 2. The PT Cruiser is a lot easier on fluids than the prowler, I'll probably only do brakes and trans every other year. 3. A smaller extractor would work if you just want to do brakes, but the larger unit pays for itself since it can do the tranny fluid without having to remove the tranny cover. It was a 10-minute job, also a lot cleaner. -GRROWL
ed monahan	The PT Cruisers are known for using (losing) some power steering fluid. Both of mine were low. I need to check them again, soon, actually. This message has been edited by ed monahan on 08-22-2004 at 09:47 PM
Black Tie 161	Sooo...your brake fluid came out dark too, huh?
GRROWL	quote: Originally posted by Black Tie 161: Sooo...your brake fluid came out dark too, huh? I wouldn't call it dark - darker than "milky", less than brown. Could have easily gone another year or 2 before it looked "dirty". Certainly no black like you reported or from my Windstar. Again, your car is younger and a LOT LESS miles. You may have had contamination of some type, could even have been the type of rubber lube they used at the factory in the calipers. I'm interested to hear your experience next year - I have a feeling the problem won't return. -GRROWL
MDProwler	GROWWL, Keep in mind that when you change the tranny fluid you are only getting some of the fluid. There is plenty more in the torque converter. The absolute best way is to have the filter changed and have the trans power flushed at a properly equiped trans shop. But the tool looks cool. We should all go to GROWWLS for a 'fluid change party'
Black Tie 161	I'm surprised mine came out so dark then...should have taken a pic of the jar.
psynk	Can't ya just use a turkey baster and some surgical tubing on the brakes, suck out the old fluid from the master cylinder (no joke here, I got chewed out once by this site!), and use the tubing to direct the fluid from the bleeder screws into some container? Seems like a lot of money just to suck out some fluid!
GRROWL	quote: Originally posted by MDProwler: GROWWL, Keep in mind that when you change the tranny fluid you are only getting some of the fluid. There is plenty more in the torque converter. The absolute best way is to have the filter changed and have the trans power flushed at a properly equiped trans shop. Oh, where to start. The approach that I'm using is the result of coming up with my own system based on lengthy discussions on another board. My analysis shows that it's faster/better/cheaper to do partial transmission fluid changes on a frequent basis rather than use the manufacturer's recommended intervals. Here's some datapoints: 1. In normal service (for which GRROWL qualifies), there is no Chrysler service interval to EVER change the transmission fluid (or filter). 2. The above is supported by the language on the ATF+4 transmission fluid container from Chrysler, "Engineered to be a 'Fill for Life' Automatic Transmission Fluid under normal driving conditions." 3. To replace the filter involves using silicone sealant in the reassembly. Not something I want to do on a routine basis. 4. Since it is so simple to disconnect the trans cooler lines, it would be very easy to come up with a procedure to "power-flush" using the transmission pump itself. I have used this method on other cars, don't need it here. 5. The specifications show the transmission capacity as less than 8 quarts. It only took 5-10 minutes to suck out and replace 4 quarts, or more than half. Let's make an assumption that, contrary to Chrysler statements, that the ATF+4 super-fluid is only good for 100,000 miles (as is the case for the "severe" maintenance schedule) - mathematically, let's assume it's 100% worn out at 100,000 miles. So, over the first 10 years of the car's life (assuming 10,000 miles/year), the fluid will be, on the average, 50% worn out. Much worse, for the last year of the 10-year cycle, you will be running at least 90% (to 100%) totally worn out fluid. If you run 10,000 miles per year and start my system after one year, you will replace half the fluid at the 10%-worn point for an average of 95% new over the year. Without running the math, you will be benefitting from 36 quarts of new fluid over the first 10 years vs. zero. (Running the math, you will have a worst-case situation of 80% new fluid with an average over the 10 years of 90% new). Bottom line - this system is OVERLY AGGESSIVE and infinitely exceeds the "normal" service recommendations. Even comparing to the "severe" interval, this exceeds it by at least 1,000% - AND IT'S EASIER!!! From a practical perspective, I'll probably do this again in 2 years - if the fluid looks no worse than it did the first time, I know I found the perfect interval. -GRROWL P.S. - BTW, "powerflushing" doesn't replace all of the fluid either. The engine would need to be running and the transmission shifted through all gears in order to flush out the individual circuits - the logistics and synchronization to do this on a power-flush unit would be impossible. P.P.S. - the suction method I used is an acceptable method and documented in the service manual by Chrysler.
GRROWL	quote: Originally posted by psynk: Can't ya just use a turkey baster and some surgical tubing on the brakes, suck out the old fluid from the master cylinder (no joke here, I got chewed out once by this site!), and use the tubing to direct the fluid from the bleeder screws into some container? Seems like a lot of money just to suck out some fluid! I don't know that the turkey baster has enough suction to do the job - you want to get enough velocity of the fluid to flush out any air bubbles as well. If you want to go the economical route, see Black Tie 161's post. Just use the old, conventional 2-person method where one person steps on the brakes, the other opens the bleeder valve and directs the fluid through some tubing into a jar. There's also a much smaller (ounces) Mity Vac that's made for this that's a lot less expensive. I bought the 10 quart unit to do the transmission fluid changes on my 2 Chryslers - I don't want to have to replace the pans using silicone sealant. The brake-bleed function is a bonus. -GRROWL
Black Tie 161	GRROWL: I like your analysis on the tranny fluid change thingy...very cool. psync: I think a turkey baster would work well...just sucking up some fluid, that's all. If it can pull up water, it can pull up brake fluid.....Just remember to not put it back in the kitchen drawer later...LOL. Even though I flushed my brakes the cheapo way, I did buy a mini vac thing to suck the dirty fluid out of the resoirvoir. The reason was I would be sucking less dirty fluid thru the lines if I replaced the master cylinder with fresh fluid....shortening the length of the process. The only bother I had was the partition in the cylinder between the fronts and backs....harder to fill and drain the back partition..meaning you can flush the fluid and the front of the master cylinder is clean and the back part can still be dirty fluid....almost like draining two separate resoirvoirs. This message has been edited by Black Tie 161 on 08-26-2004 at 07:08 AM
spoons	Grrowl, Does the MityVac come with adapters for all 4 wheels or do you bleed each wheel separately? ------------------ Brian K. Richardson West Palm Beach, FL http://www.brianrichardson.net 1997 Purple W/ 1997 Mopar Trailer TGF Metalcrafters Rear Spoiler ~ Mopar Borla Prowler Exhaust ~ Splash Guards(Front + Back) ~ Ceramic brake pads (front) ~ "Cracked Ice" shimmers on rear bumpers ~ Magic Touch Design 2.2 Air Intake ~ Purple Painted Shift Bezel ~ Trailer Leather Bra ~ Complete, Speaker Upgrade ~ Front Suspension Brace ~ 2001 Prowler Ignition Key ~ Louvered Transmission Cover ~ Flamed Panther Prowler "Cat-Skins" seat covers.
GRROWL	quote: Originally posted by spoons: Grrowl, Does the MityVac come with adapters for all 4 wheels or do you bleed each wheel separately? No, it's one wheel at a time. The adapter comes with a shut-off valve so you don't lose the vacuum between wheels. One thing I did, though, was buy some extra tubing at Home Depot to extend the distance - this way, I can suck it out from the rear wheels while I'm watching the reservoir. I actually bought the extractor for the main purpose of changing tranny fluid in the 2 Chryslers, and the brakes are a bonus - it works well for both, but the setup that I bought required the brake adapter as a separate purchase. -GRROWL